By “Morality is universal” do you mean there is an absolute standard of morality? Maybe our problem is a definition in terms. As an atheist I believe that morality exists only in the minds of humans. Each individual makes up there own mind about what is wrong or right. They don’t make this decision in a vacuum. They are influenced by the way their brains work (genetics and development) and by what they are taught or experience (environment).

Despite all the humans in the world most tend to agree on what is right and what is wrong, because most moral questions are simple; don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t hurt other people if it can be avoided. These kinds of rules are simple and obvious and when followed benefit society. I believe that we evolved to hold these values, because it benefits our social group which benefits us. There always will be a small numbers of “defectors”, because a society can survive with a little defection.

If you are asking if I believe that genes determine who you are, the answer is: not entirely. Your genes and the environment that you develop and experience determines who you are.

“One correction; a christian cannot love God while not loving other human beings.”

Yet many Christians manage to not like some human beings. Christians are human like everyone else. You won’t find they commit fewer crimes.

“It is time I believe for a more holistic discussion on the limitations of theistic and atheistic philosophies. I say that with full understanding that christian belief is premised on the story of Jesus being true in the most basic sense of the word.”

More holistic? Please explain.

Unless, you step over Dawkins chasm, and launch full force into determinism. It is, after all, the most consistent thread of thought ijn Western atheistic thought.

One correction; a christian cannot love God while not loving other human beings. Jesus was so strong on that point, as John, his follower directly tells us (along with other statements – no murderer has eternal life in him).

It is time I believe for a more holistic discussion on the limitations of theistic and atheistic philosophies. I say that with full understanding that christian belief is premised on the story of Jesus being true in the most basic sense of the word.

The idea that there could be an experiment to prove that something is right or wrong is ludicrously rooted in the notion of absolute morality. Have you even been reading my posts?

I don’t believe I have imposed any of my views on you. Can you explain where I have?

Again beliefs in these areas are based on values. I value human life and liberty. A healthy society is important because it allows individuals the greatest opportunity to enjoy their lives and make their own decisions. These ideas are based on personal values, they are subjective so there is no proof involved. If you do not value human life and liberty than you might disagree.

“Proof” cannot tell us what is important, because the importance of things is subjective. You seem to confuse subjective with nonexistent or super-natural, let me assure you it means neither.

Do whatever you feel like. You’re just buying into what the judeo-christian superstition has put over on society.

I mean, right and wrong? Prove it. Design the experiment to show what is good and what is evil. And if it is subjective, then it is the same mumbo jumbo of all religion.

Also, if it’s subjective, what right do you have to impose your views about it on me. How can you justify any law or any opposition to a law (including Nazi edicts)?

By the way, why is “a healthy society” a good thing? What makes that good? Who cares if there is any human society at all? It’s all just atoms, thermodynamic arrangements that don’t matter one way vs another. To believe anything else is to BELIEVE something that the evidence cannot support.

2. Because I judge their value system as wrong. I am merely stating my opinion and the consensus of our society here. Are you claiming that the Nazi’s thought what they were doing was immoral?

3. Of course there are right or wrong things. They are not absolutely right or wrong however. They are judged that way from the perspective of people and their society.

I want to be considered moral, because I am moral. We are going around in circles, but I think part of our trouble is a definition of moral. I don’t know if we are using the same one.

Moreover it leads to a situation where we have no need to guard against such immorality in our own country. We could watch as our freedoms are restricted and our politicians exert more control over our lives with the thought that it is ok, because they talk about god guiding them therefore they are not “evil”. But it isn’t being evil that is the problem. The problem is the lack of value that they place on freedom!

Although it isn’t implicit in atheism. I don’t think most atheists would believe in “evil” as it is usually thought of. Evil is simply someone who doesn’t value the right things or values the wrong things.

Of course I believe that Nazi’s are immoral. I just don’t pretend that I have an absolute morality cheat sheet in my pocket. The reason they are immoral is because of the way they devalued human life, freedom and dignity.

Again I would question the internal consistency of their moral code. Beyond that I can say it is immoral based on my values, which it is. But morality is subjective, so I can’t declare anything absolutely immoral because there is no such thing.